Becky: When I heard somebody say, “let them hit rock bottom,” I thought, “huh? Yeah. Huh? What– what are you saying?” Rock bottom to me, even back then, before I knew what rock bottom truly was, wasn’t someplace I wanted her to be. 

Voiceover: This is Rethinking Rock Bottom, a podcast that explores a complicated experience of loving someone struggling with substance use. Hosted by Reverend Jan Brown and Dr. Carrie Wilkins.

Jan: When I first met Becky at Spirit Works and heard about her daughter, Katie was using opiates at the time. Things had changed fast for both Becky and Katie, and before Becky knew it, she had lost total contact with her daughter.

Carrie: Like many parents, Becky got advice that felt at odds with her parental instincts. Did she really have to detach and let Katie hit rock bottom in order to heal? That just didn’t seem right to Becky.

Jan: Yes. But before we get there, let’s hear a little bit about Katie.

Becky: Oh, Katie. Katie was amazing. She was a light. And she’d walk into a room, I would always say to Jan, “Katie came into the room 10 minutes before you saw her actually come in the room,” because she was always bouncing and happy and– and loud. Katie loved music. She loved musical theater. She was very talented. My husband and I would wake up at six o’clock every school day morning listening to some Broadway show tune being belted at the top of her lungs, and that’s the way I– our days started. And I never had to– to say, “Katie, come home at this time,” or “Katie, you have to do this.” She was always home when she was supposed to be, even when she was dating. If I said ” home at 11 o’clock,” she was home at 10:55. So that’s what I thought life was gonna be like.

Carrie: Of course, life had other ideas for Becky. It always does, doesn’t it? The problem for many parents is that it can be hard to put your finger on exactly what’s happening, especially when you’re on that rollercoaster ride of everyday life with a teenager. Let’s hear about the changes that started to show up in Katie following a breakup with her longtime boyfriend.

Becky: She had dated the same guy from ninth grade on. He broke up with her and it was devastating to her. She didn’t quite understand what was going on, and I could kind of see a change happening, but I wasn’t sure what was going on. And at that point, my husband had said, “honey, you need to let her fly a little bit. She’s gonna go to college soon.” And– and then she started changing. I could see things were changing, but I just thought it was because she was growing up and didn’t need mom quite so much.

And she started telling us she was staying at friends’ houses, or she was gonna be at this place or that place. And I kept thinking, “okay, don’t check up. Don’t check up, don’t check up.” And then things started showing up and her drama teacher called me one day and said, “Becky, do you know who this guy is?” And I said, “no, I have no idea who he is.” And she said, “you need to find out, there’s something going on.” At that point, my Katie had turned 18, and unfortunately when your child turns 18, the police and everybody else don’t think you have any more rights. And Katie’s light went out. The smiling stopped and she quit singing and she just stopped being Katie.

When we finally found out this person and where he was, he was dealing drugs. He was living in a trailer with his grandmother and he had introduced her to his grandmother’s Percocet. And it wasn’t long, within a few months he was her life and my husband and I didn’t have any idea of that life. So our lives changed in about four months. So we started, you know, really looking to see what was going on and finding out that she was spending the night with this guy, instead of the girl that she was supposed to be with. And she got in trouble for it. And we took the car. And told her, “you could continue working your job, but we are gonna take you to work and we’ll pick you up. You know, we need to figure this out.” Well, we took her to work the day after we found her with Skye and he went and got her while she was on her work shift and they disappeared for several days. And that– that’s when this mom kind of went crazy.

Carrie: I was gonna say, that must’ve been terrifying.

Becky: I became kind of like a private investigator. I found out who he was, who his grandmother was, who his mother was. This is kind of funny. Right now I’m thinking about it. My husband got a baseball bat and we got in the car and we drove to this trailer where his grandmother lived. And I knocked on the door and an older lady came to the door and I asked for her and she said, “she’s not here. She began to tell me that Katie was an adult and I needed to stay out of it. So luckily, my husband helped me out of the house before I went to jail. And that was kinda like the next few years ’cause she left us and– and I couldn’t do anything. I’ve called every police officer I knew and all he could say to me was, “I’m sorry, my hands are tied.” Yeah, and the change that happens to you. You know when I’d lay in bed and think, “how could I burn the house down or burn the trailer down and make sure she was out of it?” I mean, that’s not me.

Jan: We can hear the desperation Becky was feeling during this time. It is both terrifying and painful to have a loved one doing new and dangerous things, and it can be enraging because other people are suddenly having an influence on your child or your loved one. Family members understandably just want to fix the problem quickly.

Becky: I often thought if I could just get my hands on her, to see me, you know, I could fix this. That’s what I had in my head. “If I could just get her to see me, I can fix it.” I didn’t realize the substance had taken the place of me. At the time, I didn’t have any idea. And I tried so hard to find somebody to help me, but there really wasn’t anybody out there, you know, I mean, you, you had– there were a few 12 step programs for parents, and what they were telling me was to “push her away, shut the door, worry about yourself,” and it was like, I’m a mom, you know, it’s up to me to take– to protect her. I’m a mom. You don’t shut the door and worry about yourself. No. When I heard somebody say, “let them hit rock bottom,” I thought, “huh? Yeah. Huh? What? What are you saying?” Rock bottom to me, even back then, before I knew what rock bottom truly was, it wasn’t someplace I wanted her to be. You know, and as a mom, I can’t just– I can’t let her hit rock bottom.

Carrie: Distance with love, detach, let them hit rock bottom. It’s the opposite of what you feel like you can do when you have a loved one in crisis. The advice people get is so counter to their values that they can’t actually do what’s being recommended to them. They really wanna help, and so they keep trying in spite of the advice. They do the best they can with the skills and knowledge they have at the time.

Becky: I’m kind of bullheaded and I’m gonna figure this out myself, and you need to stand over there while I do it. The mom that I am would wait for my husband to leave for work in the morning, and I would get in my car and I’d go to that trailer. Because he would say, “don’t you dare go over there.” “I won’t. I won’t. I promise.” And I– as a matter of fact, I just told him this about a month ago. “Do you know that’s where I went every morning?” I even did silly things like, oh, they needed money and if they were gonna get themselves clean, if I could help them. and I tried to be a mom who could accept him too and give them money to help them. I didn’t know at the time what I was doing. I was just trying to– to help.

Jan: Well, and I know, ’cause I know a bit of your story that there came a time when– when you all did lose contact with her and– and you didn’t see her for– for a period of time. Talk a little bit about that before we kind of shift gears.

Becky: She had been struggling for about six years. She’d been in several rehabs at that point and had spent some time in recovery. And I, at that point, kind of knew she was using again, but it– I wanted to keep that connection and– and she went underground. And it was almost a year before I heard anything at all. I would get bits and pieces from people saying she was with motorcycle gangs and she was in this thing and that thing, and she had gotten herself so far in, she would never get out.

Jan: So you mentioned your bullheadedness and, uh, the fact that those around you loved you and supported you through this. What would you say opened the door for you to start making some of those changes for yourself?

Becky: I felt like I couldn’t live like this anymore. It had started to wear on me to the point, my husband came home one day and I was in our pantry sitting on the floor crying and saying, “I don’t wanna live anymore.” I have an amazing husband. He was never ashamed of her struggle. Never. He– he– he would tell anyone “Katie’s struggling with– with substances and we’re gonna figure this out.” He was always very supportive and he said to me, “we’ve gotta find somebody to help you,” because I didn’t have the ability to compartmentalize like he can. So it was what I ate, drank, slept, breathed. Everything was– was trying to save her.

I started looking around for a family group who had children with the same issue that Katie did, and I couldn’t find anything. But one of the ladies in the church, she said, “I’ve got a lady, her name is Lynn, and this is her phone number. And she’s waiting for your call.” So I called and she listened to me scream, cry, carry on. You know, basically we always say, “well, she just kind of threw up on you,” ’cause that’s where I was at. And she said, “we have a parents’ group. I don’t normally go, but I’ll be there for you.” And so I said, “okay, I’m coming.” And it was like two days later and my husband said, “where are you going?” I said, I’m going to a parent’s group.” And he said, “I’ll go with you.” And so we walked in and– and Lynn was right there. She was waiting on me. And that’s a kindness. I don’t know. I can’t– I can’t even tell you when you’re a mom struggling so hard to see somebody else that understands, it means the world.

Jan: You can really see the power of connecting with other people who have shared lived experiences. There is so much shame and stigma that comes along with having a loved one who struggles with substance use and family members often try to go it alone. When Becky joined our community at Spirit Works and started to connect with others, she also opened up to different ideas and perspectives. Carrie, I remember giving her your book Beyond Addiction: How Science and Kindness Help People Change. Which, as you know, is all about CRAFT: Community Reinforcement and Family Training, a very powerful set of strategies to encourage and support positive change in a loved one. Becky soaked up that information like a sponge.

Becky: I started reading that book and understanding that it was okay to love her and to wanna keep connection with her and to meet her where she was, whether she ever stopped using. I wanted to stay connected to her, and I wanted to be part of her life and her be part of mine, even though we still had to have our boundaries. I said, “I need to figure out how to get in contact with her, because I don’t even know where she is.” We would communicate over Instagram, and so she said, “just say every once in a while, ‘Hey, I love you,’ and just let it be.” And so for about six months, I would type in, “I love you, I’m here. I don’t need anything from you.” And finally, after about six months, I got an “I love you too, mom.” So that started making that change.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s– that can be a really powerful intervention for somebody who feels so far adrift. And I’ve coached many family members to do the same thing, and I know like it’s so difficult to send that message out, “Hey, I love you,” and not get anything back for six months. There’s a lot to hold there and to be able to kind of just keep doing it and keep having faith, and keep having it be just consistent with who you wanna be. And it sounds like you really held onto that and persisted and– and she responded.

Becky: Yeah. I’m persistent if nothing else.

Carrie: Yeah. As you can hear, staying connected to a loved one struggling with substance use is very hard work. This emotional struggle is unfortunately compounded when a family tries to navigate the treatment system.

Becky: They really glamorize it when you’re talking to somebody who wants your, uh, checkbook. But you know, they give you all of these numbers of success stories and so you’re wanting it so bad, you’re wanting your child to be okay. And so you’ll believe anything they tell you, you know, they’re gonna teach her how to get a job, how to live life without substances. And how to, I don’t know, buy a car, you know, just normal everyday things. And then once she was in most of these places, I would ask, “well, what do you do all day long?” “Well, we go to groups.” “M’kay, what do you do in these groups?” “We sit around and tell our stories.” And often they would say they had family programming and that they had, you know, people that would help the families. If you gave them extra money, you could go through these family program, and so we would give them the extra money. And then when you get there, it– there was nothing really there, but some videos. There was nobody to walk with you. There was nobody to tell you what was happening and why it was happening, and it was okay to field what you were feeling. And so that was– that’s what I mean when I say the things that they said just were not true.

Carrie: Unfortunately, family members often feel quite beat up or are neglected by treatment providers. Some are told they have the disease of codependency, a diagnosis that doesn’t exist and implies there’s something wrong with them. It makes them feel like they shouldn’t try to help, which is a terrible bind for a parent. But for many, the process of helping is transformative, they learn a lot about themselves along the way.

Becky: I have changed immensely through all of this. You know, I hear parents say, “well, I’ll never be the same again,” and I’m grateful I’ll never be the same again. You know, ’cause I– I look at the world differently now than I did when she was younger and before all this started, and I’m glad I do. And I learned my bias. I learned my– that I was judgmental. I learned that my family when I was growing up wasn’t that great, and maybe I’m exposing her to the things in my life that wasn’t so great that I didn’t let myself even talk about. And I had traumas and damage from being married before in a bad marriage and trying to co-parent with a man who really didn’t wanna be married or co-parent. And yeah, you learn a lot about yourself if you slow down and let yourself do it.

Jan: I know Becky didn’t have a ton of self-compassion when she started out on her journey. She wasn’t giving herself permission to slow down and think, “what do I need?” As she learned the Invitation To Change approach, I noticed Becky starting to express compassion for herself, and then kindness began to trickle into her larger worldview.

Becky: From ITC I’ve learned how to be self-aware and also compassionate with myself, ’cause I’m– I’m making changes. I’m learning. I’m learning every day something different. Having people tell you to be compassionate to yourself, and you know, it doesn’t mean you go to the spa every day, but just understanding that you’re– you’re working really hard to do something that you don’t really know how to do, and you’re gonna say the wrong thing and it’s okay. You know? So–

Carrie: It’s human.

Becky: It’s human. Yeah. We’re human. And yeah– when you’re going through this and you’re trying to help a child– and my mother also died the first year that Katie was using. And I had taken care of my mom for a couple of years, and I didn’t even grieve my mom, ’cause I was so busy trying to get Katie back. I was grieving Katie. I didn’t have time to grieve my mom. I didn’t feel like I deserved anything because I had failed as a mom. And my husband’s very good at telling me, “honey, you’re the be– you are the best mom ever. You guys had a connection I’ve never seen with two people.” And once I started listening to him, letting myself believe what he was telling me– and other people were telling me, I started having compassion for myself. And if we don’t, it makes us sick, ’cause I was headed to being sick– physically.

Carrie: When you have a loved one, struggling with substance use or any problematic behavior, it’s not uncommon to think “it must be my fault. I must be doing something wrong. Otherwise they would’ve changed already.” This is extra painful for parents, the belief that it’s their fault. It causes so much heartache.

Becky: You’re supposed to protect your child. You’re supposed to– you know, make the way for them, keep all the– the monsters away. And you can’t always keep the monsters away. And once they start becoming an adult, you know, I– I talk to parents about that often, they’re their own person. You know, you can– you can teach them to fly, but once they fly you kind of have to set back and watch ’em, ’cause you’ve taught them all you can teach them and now they’re adults and that’s really hard.

Carrie: It’s so clear how hard Becky tried to help Katie and how much their relationship changed. Yet unfortunately, in spite of all of her efforts, we know that Katie died.

Becky: We hadn’t actually had a phone call for maybe a month or so, and we had often said, “let’s, let’s find a place and get together.” I said, “I’m coming to Richmond. I have been going to this place called Spirit Works, and they’re having a conference recon. I’m gonna go up there and help out and learn some stuff, and maybe you can come one day.” So she said, “okay, yeah. Okay, I’ll do it.” I– and honestly, I didn’t think that that would ever happen, you know, I just thought she was saying, “okay.” So, I left the conference. I went and I picked her up and she– she’s a mess. And– and so she got to meet my– my family of choice, which was amazing. And– and they got to see who she was and– and that she was trying to work her recovery. And that it’s– that it was hard. It was hard. But, I’m so glad that they had that time to meet her. And we spent five hours that night together. We went to dinner and we went shopping and we it was like old times, you know, just getting her and going and doing and being silly. And– but in the back of my head I kept thinking, “this can’t be real.” You know, it was too– it was too good to be true is the way it felt. And so that was a Wednesday and um–

Carrie: Mm-Hmm.

Becky: I came home that night. Everything was great. I was so excited about the conference, ’cause I got to meet people that were in recovery and it was not what I thought it was gonna be. I mean, these people were like, they were so nice to me and they accepted me and I was nothing but a mom is what I kept saying. “I’m nothing but a mom.” And it was amazing. And so when I came home, I was so excited to tell my husband, he was like, “I’ve never seen you like this in so long.” And then the next morning, which was August the 29th, 2019, at 9:00 AM in the morning, my phone started ringing and I answered it. And the young man she was living with at that time said to me, “Katie’s gone.” And I– I– I said, “well, where did she go” was my question, “where did she go?” And he said, “I mean, really, she’s– she’s gone, she’s dead.” And I– I couldn’t even quite grasp what he was telling me. And he– and I was like, “how,” you know? And he said, “I’m not sure. She was okay when I went to sleep and when I got up this morning, she was laying beside me and she was dead.” And, but luckily– and I again, will be grateful to him, he called me. He didn’t let the police call me. He called the police and he even went to jail, because there was paraphernalia and heroin in the house. And– but he called and she had dignity and so did I. Can I break for just a second?

Carrie: Mm-Hmm.

Jan: Of course.

Becky: Okay.

Carrie: Take your time.

Becky: I’m sorry.

Jan: Oh, no, no need to be sorry.

Becky: But the one thing that I was so afraid of, he kept from happening. Because I know where she is.

Carrie: Mm-Hmm.

Becky: I know she’s okay. And when Katie’s name comes up at work, everybody laughs and they know Katie. And those two days were a gift. That if I wouldn’t have met Jan Spirit works and– and read that book from CRAFT, I don’t believe I would’ve had it.

Jan: Yeah, I’ve heard you say that that often. And while I agree with all of those things, I think that you were ready, you had to show up. And that’s one of the things that we talk about at Spirit Works all the time, right? Is that, you know, you’ve had to show up for her, but bigger than that, you had to show up for yourself. And so that was what allowed you to be able to be there for her and for you.

Carrie: And also open, like open to whatever you were gonna find with her, right? Like you really let her in and brought her into your world and shared it all. And that openness, it sounds like she really stepped into it with you for those two days, which you know might’ve not happened earlier when you weren’t able to be there for yourself. And that openness within you probably really created that space.

Becky: And once I started doing the ITC training, the part of willingness,

Carrie: Hmm.

Becky: knowing it’s gonna hurt and– and being afraid the whole time you’re doing it. And it– it’s kind of hurting, but I wanted it, so I would accept the pain. And when parents come and they– they want help and they wanna talk to you, and they– they want you to give them the answer. That’s all they want. They don’t wanna do the rest of it. They just want you to give them the answer. And then people say, “Well, they came one time, why didn’t they come back?” Well, once you walk through that door, you give it a name and it’s real. And it’s easier when you don’t give it a name and it’s not real.
Jan: So what are some of the things that you know that– that you find yourself practicing or– or needing to practice for– for your peace of mind and– and that has allowed you to– to stay connected with yourself and– and be there for other parents and to keep moving forward?

Becky: Meditation. Meditation is my connection to the world. Being able to– that’s my kindness, I guess.

Jan: Mm-Hmm.

Becky: You know, I take my time in the morning and I’ve got to be present with myself and tell myself, “you’re okay. You got this.” And for me to do the job that I do, every once in a while, I think, “why am I doing this? This is not what I wanted to do. How did I get here?” I’ve started looking at it differently. This was the gift that Katie left me, was being able to be there for someone else like I didn’t have. And when you see one parent connect with that child that they hadn’t talked to, or they see a glimmer of hope and come back and say, “thank you for listening,” that makes all the other times so worthwhile. When I think “I’m tired, I don’t wanna do this anymore.”

Jan: Letting herself join a community, creating a larger sense of family around her, both of those things were transformative for Becky. And I see that a lot. Our overdose awareness day was planned for a couple of days right after Katie’s death. I remember asking Becky if she felt it was too soon for her to attend.

Becky: For me, not to show up would’ve been like telling me, don’t come home, because I felt like I was finally home. And Katie died on a Thursday night and overdose awareness was on a Friday. And you know, all these things happened in a special way and I’m grateful. Because there’s a lot of people that didn’t have it the way that I did and in the community that I have still to this day, they don’t have.

Jan: Just the importance of having that community.

Becky: Mm-Hmm. And that connection and knowing everybody there cares. And they understand and there’s no judgment. Even when I say stuff mean and I have to come back later and apologize, you know, that we’re human and we do that.

Jan: Yeah. So that unconditional love and unconditional regard for– for each other.

Becky: Mm-Hmm.

Jan: It is clear how much Becky changed. I asked her what she would say to herself if she could go back to the beginning of her journey, knowing what she knows now.

Becky: “You’re a good mom.” “You did everything you could do.” “You were there.” “Slow down.” “Take a breath.”
“It’s not your fault.”
“She loved you.”
Yeah, and—and I was lucky because she wrote, “I love you” so much to me. I’ve got letters of if she was to die, how she wanted to be buried or where she wanted to be buried. But she would end it with, “you’re an amazing mom and I’m so grateful I got to go on this journey with you.” You know? And a lot of parents don’t have that. I don’t know. It’s kind of silly, but it was, it’s been a hard journey. It will be the rest of my life, but it’s been an amazing journey.

Jan: Yeah. One of the things that– and– and you– you set me up for this one, one of the things that– that you and I talk about and we talk about in parents group, and– and you’ve certainly said to other parents and– and you– you talked about it a a bit ago, that you know, this idea of “how am I going to live if my child dies?” Right. And, and your response to that and our conversations about it have always been amazing. You know, just the recognition that it’s gonna be different and that you can.

Becky: Yeah. You’re– you’re never gonna be the person you were before. You’ve gotta accept there’s gonna be a change. Life is gonna be different, and there’s still joy in this world.

Jan: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Even without Katie physically here, she will always be here and there’s still joy.

Carrie: Becky, you have given so much just in talking about this and I– I also think that just listeners hearing that last message, which you can– you can acknowledge and honor everything that you’ve been through and keep finding a way to live life and feel the joy in life after such a profound loss. I think that’s just such a gift to offer up. Do you have other hopes for our listeners, like anything else that you would hope they know or take in or feel as they listen to this?

Becky: I hope that they would give the ITC program a chance, read Beyond Addiction and really read it. And feel it and learn the things that I didn’t have the opportunity to learn earlier. But also know even though you know all the answers, or what we think are answers, things may not turn out the way you want it to.

Carrie: Thank you for that.

Becky: I’m grateful for a lot of things and just have to stop sometimes and be grateful.

Carrie: Well, that’s the little secret part of this podcast, I think is hopefully offering a moment that we all can do that and have that moment of gratefulness just for all the ways communities can come together and that we can help each other through really painful– painful, and like you said, amazing journeys. But to be together in that is really the important message here I think.

Jan: Thank you.

Becky: Thank you.

Jan: We are so grateful for Becky’s willingness to share her story. Her loss is profound and there are so many parents and families who are suffering in the same way. Sharing our stories is one way we can help each other, and Becky’s story is a powerful example of the healing that happens when we connect with each other, especially in difficult times.

Carrie: When Becky was trying to go it alone, even though she was doing her very, very best, she ended up on that pantry floor in agony. But as she opened herself up to her husband and then to other parents who had similar experiences, Becky started to soften and opened to new ways to approach the problem she faced.

Jan: I think, being connected to others allowed her to persist in connecting with her daughter. She kept sending those unanswered “I love you texts,” and she allowed herself to love herself and her daughter in spite of so many disappointments and so much heartache. As a result, she and Katie eventually reconnected and these shared moments live inside Becky to this day. If she had detached or waited for Katie to hit rock bottom before she engaged with her, she would’ve missed out on these healing moments.

Carrie: With support and new skills, she found permission to love Katie and stay connected to her, even though she was still using. And you know, in my experience, the person with the problem is often pulling away from the people they love because they feel so bad and they’re so full of shame about what they’re doing. They often can’t see a way out. The physical dependency or trauma, it’s just too much for them to put into words, and they don’t feel hopeful they can change.
Jan: They don’t feel lovable, which is why the advice family members get to “detach and confront” is so problematic. Not only does that advice go against the values of so many families, it prevents the power of their connection from having a positive impact on their loved one.

Carrie: Instead, science and the lived experience of so many show the most effective ways to help someone make changes are grounded in being kind, and curious, giving them options, and respecting their autonomy. There are also a whole host of communication skills that help lower defensiveness and increase engagement, instead of shutting the person down by confronting them. Thankfully, Becky had learned some of these skills, which helped her reconnect with her daughter. And even though she lost her in the end, these moments of connection are now a source of comfort and resilience for Becky.

Jan: That connection is still felt by Becky and it gives her the strength to live with the loss she feels every day, and she goes on to share that strength with those around her. And we thank her once again for sharing her story with us.

Carrie: And we thank our listeners. We offer this podcast to all of those of you who have lost a loved one due to substance use. Your numbers and your pain are enormous. We hope you find some compassion and connection here with us today.

Becky: Our hearts are with you.

Voiceover: Rethinking Rock Bottom is a production of CMC:Foundation for Change. If you’re looking for more support, visit cmmcffc.org.